Disability Benefits For Pilots Over Age 60

Discuss topics relating to Air Canada.

Moderators: ahramin, sky's the limit, Sulako, North Shore

Message
Author
Raymond Hall
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 424
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:45 am

Re: Disability Benefits For Pilots Over Age 60

#51 Post by Raymond Hall » Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:28 am

Observer wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:52 am
The $127 million gain had nothing to do with training costs. Not to say that Air Canada won't see some savings in the training department, but the gain you refer to was booked because of pension plan accounting. It was an upfront recognition by the accountants and actuaries that the DB plan would be saving money, a little bit every year over the next 60 years (until all the DB plan members are dead). The present value (December, 2012) of these savings, based on revised retirement projections attributed to this change in legislation, was estimated to be $127M. A total guess by the number crunchers, but there you have it.

But to your point, whether it was attributed to training or pension savings, ACPA got absolutely nothing for this.
Thank you. I stand corrected. Now think of the implications of this fact. No accounting for reduced training costs. In our Thwaites hearing, Air Canada witnesses estimated the average cost of a pilot training course at $40,000. How many courses were avoided as a result over the five years from December 2012 to December 2017 as many pilots remained in their senior positions instead of opting for retirement? Hundreds per year, every year! Every B-777 Captain that retires generates up to ten additional courses, given the number of positions down-seniority affected.

So add to the $127 million in pension benefit savings for which the union received no credit or apportionment, the millions and millions of dollars that Air Canada realized from reduced pilot training!
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
'97 Tercel
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 323
Joined: Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:19 pm

Re: Disability Benefits For Pilots Over Age 60

#52 Post by '97 Tercel » Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:12 pm

It is between your filtered perception and reality
Yeah, I'm pretty sure everyone on here has a "filtered perception".
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
confusedalot
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 760
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:08 pm
Location: location, location, is what matters

Re: Disability Benefits For Pilots Over Age 60

#53 Post by confusedalot » Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:23 pm

Raymond Hall wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:28 am
Observer wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:52 am
The $127 million gain had nothing to do with training costs. Not to say that Air Canada won't see some savings in the training department, but the gain you refer to was booked because of pension plan accounting. It was an upfront recognition by the accountants and actuaries that the DB plan would be saving money, a little bit every year over the next 60 years (until all the DB plan members are dead). The present value (December, 2012) of these savings, based on revised retirement projections attributed to this change in legislation, was estimated to be $127M. A total guess by the number crunchers, but there you have it.

But to your point, whether it was attributed to training or pension savings, ACPA got absolutely nothing for this.
Thank you. I stand corrected. Now think of the implications of this fact. No accounting for reduced training costs. In our Thwaites hearing, Air Canada witnesses estimated the average cost of a pilot training course at $40,000. How many courses were avoided as a result over the five years from December 2012 to December 2017 as many pilots remained in their senior positions instead of opting for retirement? Hundreds per year, every year! Every B-777 Captain that retires generates up to ten additional courses, given the number of positions down-seniority affected.

So add to the $127 million in pension benefit savings for which the union received no credit or apportionment, the millions and millions of dollars that Air Canada realized from reduced pilot training!
Out of sheer curiosity, I plunked around the internet as to HOW big red miraculously got through billions of debt and billions of pension deficit. Lots of info out there but none will address the actual dollars and cents of how this was done.

Two things;

CCAA was a court ordered arrangement where the creditors had the gun to their head and were somewhat coerced into accepting a percentage of their debt, what 10, 20, 30, 40%, instead of getting 0% in the case of bankruptcy.

The pension deficit thing............at the time of all of the negative press around how the pension fund was a couple of billion in debt, nobody thought to illustrate that the pension fund was worth something like 12-16 billion. It's not like they had no money, they had a 7% deficit or something along those lines.

Bottom line, we're talking billions. A mere 127 million of pilot training savings makes zero difference in the big scheme of things.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Attempting to understand the world. I have not succeeded.

veni, vidi,...... vici non fecit.

:?

Rockie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7690
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:10 am

Re: Disability Benefits For Pilots Over Age 60

#54 Post by Rockie » Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:20 pm

The point being made Confused is that the company got every cent of it. That’s because despite years of trying to convince the pilots to keep their eye on the ball they insisted on continuing a useless fight they had already lost from the opening bell.

We deserved what we got...nothing.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Doug Moore
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 88
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 2:44 pm

Re: Disability Benefits For Pilots Over Age 60

#55 Post by Doug Moore » Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:46 pm

Rockie wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:20 pm
We deserved what we got...nothing.
But the force-retired pilots didn't deserve what they got: active resistance from the union into which they paid dues for decades, and sanctimonious abuse from members who couldn't, or wouldn't consider the upside benefits of FP60.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Rockie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7690
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:10 am

Re: Disability Benefits For Pilots Over Age 60

#56 Post by Rockie » Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:39 pm

100% agree.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Sinister
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:53 pm

Re: Disability Benefits For Pilots Over Age 60

#57 Post by Sinister » Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:29 pm

Doug Moore wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:46 pm
But the force-retired pilots didn't deserve what they got: active resistance from the union into which they paid dues for decades, and sanctimonious abuse from members who couldn't, or wouldn't consider the upside benefits of FP60.
I know that this thread is not about the previous decisions of the courts, but I must say that one thing still bothers me about those fights. I attended one of those hearings before I retired, to watch my own union's legal counsel fight against my rights both as a member of the union, and as a citizen of the country, wrongly assuming that I was protected by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms against laws permitting discrimination on the basis of age. The legal fees for the union's fight came out of my union dues, as well as out of the dues of others who similarly opposed mandatory retirement and who could see the long-term futility of the fight.

The only reasonable conclusion that I can derive from that process is that it wasn't about mandatory retirement at all. Those who fought it did so to get me and my peers off the seniority list so that they could benefit from the impending change. And benefit they did.

Am I bitter? No. But I lost a lot of respect for the legal system that allowed this to happen. I also have little respect for many of my former fellow pilots, especially the ones on the committee that represented the union in this issue, who apparently are now continuing to enjoy the continued career that they denied me, ostensibly on principle. Principle that they conveniently abandoned when it came their turn to do what they previously opposed on behalf of their constituency.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Last edited by Sinister on Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
'97 Tercel
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 323
Joined: Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:19 pm

Re: Disability Benefits For Pilots Over Age 60

#58 Post by '97 Tercel » Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:29 pm

Doug Moore wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:46 pm
Rockie wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:20 pm
We deserved what we got...nothing.
But the force-retired pilots didn't deserve what they got: active resistance from the union into which they paid dues for decades, and sanctimonious abuse from members who couldn't, or wouldn't consider the upside benefits of FP60.

Well I guess one can't argue with that..
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
confusedalot
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 760
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:08 pm
Location: location, location, is what matters

Re: Disability Benefits For Pilots Over Age 60

#59 Post by confusedalot » Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:59 am

Doug Moore wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:09 pm
Duke Point wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 5:57 pm
Rockie wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 2:14 pm
Still some holdouts incapable of recognizing age discrimination even when it’s laid out on a platter before their faces for years now. In the words of the almighty Donald...sad.

But that doesn’t explain the desire to deny sick benefits to your co-workers. You guys have a mile wide mean streak that just won’t go away.
You spend way too much time on the forum trolling for trouble for someone who is suppose to be "enjoying retirement"........

Its ironic that you would use the phrase..." a mile wide mean streak that just won't go away".......you kill me.
Been a while since I've been here. This month is the 10th anniversary of my being retired. Don't know where the time goes but it seems to go faster and faster the older I get! The job wasn't my life but even today, every time an airplane flies overhead I still look up - just as I did when I was a 10 year-old kid. I would be less than honest if I didn't admit that even 10 years later, I still miss the people I worked with and the many great layovers where, before the days of daily frequency, those 4 and 5 day layovers in places like Rome, Lisbon, Amsterdam and Sydney, were like mini-vacations. Many great memories.

Well, those days are long gone and the job today is not like it was 30 or 40 years ago. The title of this thread caught my attention and having read through the comments it's clear that regrettably, with regards to the senior vs junior discussions, not much has changed in the 10 years that I've been out of the system. It got me to thinking about an old joke (and maybe it still makes the rounds) about the pilot seniority system wherein it was described as being akin to a ladder with the "old" senior guys at the top, who when looking down the ladder, saw nothing but the keen smiling faces of the ambitious, younger pilots below them wanting to move up. And those smiling younger faces below, as they looked up, well all they saw were assholes. It was just a simple joke, in a time when we could laugh at ourselves, a time before political correctness and easily offended sensibilities. The thing of it all is, forums such as this has revealed that those at the top who were looking down the ladder thinking they were seeing only a younger version of themselves have come to realize that, sadly, some of those younger guys are not a younger version of themselves at all, but rather are the epitome of what the young guys profess to be looking up at - they just haven't come to realize it yet.

There was also another old saying about the seniority system: "IN time, YOUR time will come; in the meantime, DO time." What some have not come to accept, or worse, are not aware, is that doing time is the critical part of becoming knowledgeable, aware and informed. A case in point being these disability benefits. As a 30 or 40 year-old, one may see no need but as one gets older one will come to appreciate those benefits being there, and particularly so if the day comes when that benefit is needed. If one never needs it, consider it "good fortune" at having won the health lottery, and if a fellow pilot ever needs it, be happy for him or her that it is there. And in the meantime, everybody pays for it by "doing" time.
So here I am at two in the morning trying to fix a busted computer and reading this stuff while waiting for a download.

I think you've nailed it on the head. Never was in the ac system but there is alot of truth as far as attitudes, or the change in attitudes shall I say, appear to be spot on. I don't want to start a generational fight mind you, but it seems to me that I too have witnessed and lived a sea change from good guy who worked hard to the, well, you know what, based solely on age. Saw a big difference in culture when I had to change jobs from an extinct operator to a new outfit with different demographics. Expectations for quick progression are very high nowadays.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Attempting to understand the world. I have not succeeded.

veni, vidi,...... vici non fecit.

:?

User avatar
Lt. Daniel Kaffee
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:43 am

Re: Disability Benefits For Pilots Over Age 60

#60 Post by Lt. Daniel Kaffee » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:18 am

But the force-retired pilots didn't deserve what they got: active resistance from the union into which they paid dues for decades, and sanctimonious abuse from members who couldn't, or wouldn't consider the upside benefits of FP60.
I suppose that's one point of view....the other might be that the AC pilot group didn't deserve the selfish-greediness displayed by the most senior pilots who benefited throughout their entire career of having pilots retire at 60 and then when it's their turn, they do a double-take and realize that they can sit on top of the pile for 5 more years, with zero regard to the lives or career progression of the pilots below them....or the already retired group that is going via the CHRT to get cash out of the union and company with no intention on their part of returning to the work force.

Please explain the upside of FP60? Being able to work past 60? Most people don't consider that an upside....the fact that many pilots will be forced to work many years past 60 to attain the same pension benefits they would have had(prior to the change in retirement age) doesn't seem like a benefit to most of the people I work with. In a unionized work environment where seniority controls every aspect of the worker's life, it really boggles the mind to see how a 5 year moratorium on seniority progression benefits everyone. If this happened in a school where everyone works the same schedule and gets the same holidays, and gets paid the same (Yes i know teachers have a salary grid) then the extra 5 years would have a significantly reduced impact. But that's not what we are talking about.

As for RH's or Rockies opinion that this could have all been negotiated and mitigated, I doubt it. There's no negotiation when it comes to a "right". Had ACPA and or AC negotiated a phase in of an increasing retirement age (or whatever scenario RH envisioned)....all it would have taken was one pilot to assert their "right" that the negotiated deal violated their "rights" and the whole thing would have been mired in litigation for decades.

Just to review....ACPA refusing to change until federal legislation forced the change forced several hundred pilots off the list and prevented an even worse scenario than the previous five years caused (2012-2017). Most ACPA members are happy that the union stood up to the cash/seniority grab.

So here we are 15 years later, the FP60 group have failed to win a significant legal victory (if any), through the CHRT and now we are moving on to get GDIP for the FP60 group...
---------- ADS -----------
  

Understated
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 265
Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:29 pm

Re: Disability Benefits For Pilots Over Age 60

#61 Post by Understated » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:56 am

Lt. Daniel Kaffee wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:18 am
...the AC pilot group didn't deserve the selfish-greediness displayed by the most senior pilots who benefited throughout their entire career of having pilots retire at 60 and then when it's their turn, they do a double-take and realize that they can sit on top of the pile for 5 more years, with zero regard to the lives or career progression of the pilots below them....or the already retired group that is going via the CHRT to get cash out of the union and company with no intention on their part of returning to the work force.
No perception problem, right? No matter what the evidence is, according to you, it all comes down to greed and self-interest on the part of those who may possibly share some of the benefit of the changes that were bound to happen.
Lt. Daniel Kaffee wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:18 am
So here we are 15 years later, the FP60 group have failed to win a significant legal victory (if any), through the CHRT and now we are moving on to get GDIP for the FP60 group...
It is not correct to say that the FP60 group failed to win a significant legal victory. The Vilven Tribunal decision and the Federal Court decision finding the mandatory retirement exemption to be of no force and effect were major victories, leading to the arbitration decisions that reinstated the employment of baggage handlers, mechanics, flight attendants and sales agents. They would have resulted in the reinstatement of pilots, as well, were it not for ACPA's refusal to put the question before an arbitrator, as the arbitrators were all bound by the Federal Court decision.

The fact that the Federal Court of Appeal overturned the Tribunal and Federal Court decisions on a principle of law that the Supreme Court of Canada later rejected places the prior Tribunal decision and Federal Court decision back before this Tribunal hearing the remaining cases of pilots whose employment was terminated just before the repeal came into effect.

It is therefore still too early to conclude that the prior proceedings were a failure.

But those facts apparently have no way of penetrating the consciousness of anyone like yourself who parrots the ideology that we see so often in contract negotiations, namely, "Don't confuse me with the facts - my mind's made up..." or "It's all about greed."
---------- ADS -----------
  

altiplano
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2943
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:24 pm

Re: Disability Benefits For Pilots Over Age 60

#62 Post by altiplano » Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:47 pm

It is self interest. What else could it be? That is clear.

It's certainly not a benefit for anyone else but those that had the right timing to be on the top when it flipped.

Personally I think we should be 30 and gone... You get your 30 years at the trough, steady, even, equal progression, and you're gone... Hired at 25? Lucky you, retire at 55. Hired at 35? I guess you're going until 65 if you want your time at the top. Hired at 40? I think we can all get behind FP65 so you get your time like the rest of us.

Same benefits, same opportunities for progression (pay) for all... The only limiting factors are the economy, personal choice (equipment bid), and perhaps getting hired at the tail end of a wave... but more or less Even Steven.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Lt. Daniel Kaffee
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:43 am

Re: Disability Benefits For Pilots Over Age 60

#63 Post by Lt. Daniel Kaffee » Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:07 pm

It is not correct to say that the FP60 group failed to win a significant legal victory.
Well this is a pilot's forum, so please excuse me for not including all the other groups that allow you to claim some sort of vicarious legal victory

As far as I can tell FP60 = 0 legal victories for pilots as of June 12, 2018
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
confusedalot
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 760
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:08 pm
Location: location, location, is what matters

Re: Disability Benefits For Pilots Over Age 60

#64 Post by confusedalot » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:20 pm

yep, it's a pilot forum alright, with the rather novel notion that retiring as early as possible is the holy grail of life itself.

know a small business guy who closed up shop at 80, not because he needed the money.

another one, a specialized lawyer, going strong at 70, once again, not because of money, he actually likes what he is doing.

The Warren Buffets and Bill Gates of this world are also active, yet they have billions and don't really need to work.

and dare I even mention the retired airline types who are still active in the business elsewhere. shocking.

that is all.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Attempting to understand the world. I have not succeeded.

veni, vidi,...... vici non fecit.

:?

User avatar
Doug Moore
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 88
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 2:44 pm

Re: Disability Benefits For Pilots Over Age 60

#65 Post by Doug Moore » Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:22 pm

Lt. Daniel Kaffee wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:18 am

Please explain the upside of FP60? Being able to work past 60? Most people don't consider that an upside....

Most ACPA members are happy that the union stood up to the cash/seniority grab.
I could start with the $127 million windfall (pointed out in a posting above) that went straight to the company's coffers as a result of the FP60 effect on the pension plan, but it would appear that's OK with the juniors as long as those seniors didn't see a single penny more by working past 60. A slice of that $127M pie could have eliminated any perceived loss of pay due to a delayed advancement and possibly even resulted in a net increase for everyone despite a delayed advancement.

Or how about being able to earn additional years of pensionable service by working past 60 and having a larger pension upon retirement? Very few members are able to achieve the maximum years of pensionable service in the DB plan and in the DC plan those years of contributions can be very significant, particularly if you have the misfortune to be considering retirement in a market downturn. You may dream today about "freedom 55" but when that day arrives on the calendar I have every confidence that you will very much appreciate having the choice to either elect retirement or to continue working.

As for your stating that "most people" don't consider working past 60 as an being an upside, come back to me when you're 60, and when you have the choice to continue working or to retire, and then tell me whether or not having that choice is an upside.

There are other esoteric benefits that only become apparent later in life and which, to describe same here, would only fall on younger, deaf ears.

I have no doubt that many people in ACPA are indeed "happy"; however, the only "cash/seniority grab" that has unfolded is the one gained by those who fought to get as many senior people as possible off the list and who now happily look forward to imposing upon those below them exactly what they fought so ruthlessly against with those above them. The irony of it all is plain to see. Not to mention the hypocrisy.

Are you one of those who "couldn't" or one of those who "wouldn't" consider the upside benefits of FP 60?
---------- ADS -----------
  

Rockie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7690
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:10 am

Re: Disability Benefits For Pilots Over Age 60

#66 Post by Rockie » Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:11 am

It’s clear the usual suspects still don’t get it, and as you suggest Doug they won’t until they reach that age and finally do without a trace of irony. But why deny health benefits to over 60 pilots if not to punish them?
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Lt. Daniel Kaffee
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:43 am

Re: Disability Benefits For Pilots Over Age 60

#67 Post by Lt. Daniel Kaffee » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:58 am

Unions Protest Against Increase in Retirement Age - Total Croatia News

Doctors protest over retirement age | Jaipur News - Times of India

Raising retirement age a risky move for governments

Violent Protests in France over Retirement Age - CBS News

Protests across France against higher pension age - Reuters

France Raises Retirement Age to 62, Citizens Protest - The Atlantic

Doctors Not Attend Duties | to Protest Against Retirement Age Increase

French throng streets in retirement age showdown | CTV News

Thousands Protesting in Brussels Against Increase of Retirement Age

Women protest at 'unfair' raising of retirement age | Calendar - ITV News






Yep, you're right...most people across the world consider raising the retirement age a good thing......
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Lt. Daniel Kaffee
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:43 am

Re: Disability Benefits For Pilots Over Age 60

#68 Post by Lt. Daniel Kaffee » Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:06 am

I could start with the $127 million windfall (pointed out in a posting above) that went straight to the company's coffers as a result of the FP60 effect on the pension plan,
Other than your considered opinion, what evidence do have to show that the company was going to share one red cent with the pilot group???

Zero is the the answer.

The pension has been in surplus for several years and yet pilots are still paying an extra 1.5% contribution..

And the company said that getting rid of the 1.5% was a non-starter...so I'm sure AC was willing to hand 127 million over to ACPA, yep, I'm sure of it.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Rockie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7690
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:10 am

Re: Disability Benefits For Pilots Over Age 60

#69 Post by Rockie » Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:14 am

All of those Lt. Kaffee refer to raising government pension ages before citizens can even begin to collect them. In other words the social safety net. The last Conservative government did the same with OAS raising the age from 65 to 67. The hated Liberals moved it back to 65.

What does that have to do with Air Canada pilot's private pension plan? You are not prevented from collecting your pension at the age you would have before should you choose to, not only that but career progression since 2012 has wildly exceeded anyone's expectations and you know it. Compare your system seniority percentage now to where it was in 2012 to see how hollow your bleating about what could have been rings.

Bottom line is unlike your examples you have the choice and your life is far better off now than it was whether you realize it or not.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Doug Moore
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 88
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 2:44 pm

Re: Disability Benefits For Pilots Over Age 60

#70 Post by Doug Moore » Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:15 am

:prayer: Geez, Lieutenant, I guess I'll just have to place you in both camps: both with those who "can't", and with those who "won't" see the benefits of FP60.
---------- ADS -----------
  

altiplano
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2943
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:24 pm

Re: Disability Benefits For Pilots Over Age 60

#71 Post by altiplano » Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:22 am

I sure wish ACPA had some "non-starters"...
---------- ADS -----------
  

Understated
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 265
Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:29 pm

Re: Disability Benefits For Pilots Over Age 60

#72 Post by Understated » Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:38 pm

Lt. Daniel Kaffee wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:18 am
Please explain the upside of FP60? Being able to work past 60?
My guess is that you arrived on the property long after I and my cohorts took a pay cut for over a year in order to save junior pilots from being furloughed. Showing any financial deference for anyone or anything but your own pocketbook is clearly not in your consensus. To you, it's a zero sum game, everyone for himself or herself, no matter what the long-term best interests of the group might be. And by way of analogy, you necessarily assume that everyone else operates with the same motivation.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Lt. Daniel Kaffee
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:43 am

Re: Disability Benefits For Pilots Over Age 60

#73 Post by Lt. Daniel Kaffee » Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:30 am

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/jerry-dia ... _23463095/

Workers Past 65 Should Do The Right Thing And Retire
Labour leaders warned that getting rid of mandatory retirement would create a block to young workers entering the workforce.
Jerry **** National President, Unifor

************************************************************************************************************************************************************
Sometimes, it's best to just get out of the way.

I recently attended the last United Auto Workers convention for Dennis Williams, who retired as president of the union. Williams, in my opinion, is articulate, determined and deeply principled.

We need more like him, but at age 65 Williams decided it was time for him to step aside and let the next generation of leadership take over. To me, it was the latest principled move by him, and made room for Gary Jones to be elected president.

With Jones as president, someone else will take his job, and someone else will take that person's job, and so on down the line until a new opportunity is created for a young worker.


Several decades ago, I can almost guarantee it, someone at de Havilland (now Bombardier) retired, creating a chain reaction that would open up a position in the plant where I would eventually get my first job. The time will come for me to retire, and I will, because it is the right thing to do — both for young workers and for the strength of the labour movement.

In order for the labour movement to flourish — or any business, agency or school, for that matter — the current generation of leadership must work with the youth to ensure they are able to lead.

Mandatory retirement began to disappear more than 10 years ago as province after province voted to end the ability of employers to compel workers to retire when they turned 65, followed by the federal government in 2012.

Forcing people to retire at a certain age came to be seen as discrimination on the basis of age. If people wanted to work past age 65, the argument went, they should be allowed.

Quite rightly, labour leaders warned that getting rid of mandatory retirement would create a block to young workers entering the workforce. It was the right stand to take then, and it's the right stand to take now. The law may have changed, but our principles must not.

Workers should retire at age 65, if only to create a new job that a young worker can fill. I can promise that I will retire before I turn 65, just as my predecessors at the Canadian Auto Workers union — Bob White, Buzz Hargrove and Ken Lewenza — did before me.

I just hope I am not alone, and I am calling on labour leaders to lead this effort. No labour leader claiming to put the needs of young people first can do so with any legitimacy while also clinging to their jobs past the age of 65.

There are really only two reasons a labour leader does not retire by 65. They are either so arrogant that they think no one else can do their job, or they have not done the work needed to prepare the next generation to take over.

They may think they are keeping the labour movement strong by sticking around and continuing to lead on the basis of their experience, but the process of preparing future generation is what ultimately makes for a stronger union.

The same goes for any business, agency or school where the old guard refuses to leave.

Despite this, there are too many examples of labour leaders working well past the traditional retirement date, and even well into their 70s. We spend much of our time as labour leaders fighting for good pensions. It's hypocritical not to use them when we have the chance.

There is no excuse for this. If you are in your 70s, you come from a different era. It is time to retire, and let some new blood flow into the organization. Those refusing to retire are putting their own agenda and ambition ahead of the needs of young people, and in the process stifling the young leaders.

The labour movement is not alone in this. Corporate leaders also often work past retirement age, and in academia we have the unseemly situation of professors who refuse to retire, while young people are forced on strike for weeks in hopes of getting something approaching a stable teaching job.

Don't get me wrong. I love the work I do. I could not imagine doing anything else. When the time comes, however, I will do the right thing and retire, and open up a position for a young worker, with fresh ideas and fresh perspectives on the challenges we face.

Having spoken to so many committed and talented young people in my time as president, I know I will be leaving things in good hands.

Have you been affected personally by this or another issue? Share your story on HuffPost Canada blogs. We feature the best of Canadian opinion and perspectives. Find out how to contribute here.

********************************************************************************************************
Jerry doesn't seem to think this is an issue of dignity or human rights....who'da figured that...

I guess the FP60 will be striking Jerry off the witness list at the next CHRT hearing....
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Doug Moore
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 88
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 2:44 pm

Re: Disability Benefits For Pilots Over Age 60

#74 Post by Doug Moore » Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:35 pm

Lt. Daniel Kaffee wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:30 am
https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/jerry-dia ... _23463095/

Jerry doesn't seem to think this is an issue of dignity or human rights....who'da figured that...

I guess the FP60 will be striking Jerry off the witness list at the next CHRT hearing....
Jerry, a 55 year-old union boss is entitled to his opinion. Some may consider his words gospel while others may see just another self-congratulatory union rant. He "promises" he will retire before 65 and good for him, particularly if retirement is his choice and on his terms. There are, however, other opinions Lieutenant, which I suspect hold little meaning to you and others your age. You don't have to agree with it, but at least try to respect it:

Seniors Stay Vital by Working: Of course, there’s another reason that seniors might continue to work well past the traditional age of retirement — because they actually want to. “Among the emerging boomers, there is a desire to stay active in their professions or work. This can be a positive phenomenon,” says William Hall, MD, professor of medicine at the University of Rochester School of Medicine and director of the Center for Healthy Aging at Highland Hospital in Rochester, N.Y. “If you feel productive and valued, don’t think about retirement.”
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Old fella
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1755
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:04 am

Re: Disability Benefits For Pilots Over Age 60

#75 Post by Old fella » Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:14 pm

Not being part of the Air Canada stock, however getting real close to the 70 age demographic I have to observe that said airline has some good movement in the hiring end this past few years. If I read some board commentary correctly pilots who have been on the property 5 years and even less have moved over to the left seat. To an observer like me, it is kinda hard to figure out why those pilots beyond 60 yrs old who elect to continue flying( for whatever reason, be it job enjoyment, increased pensionable time, need the money due personal situation) are holding back others who are lower on the totem pole. In my working experience majority those who are able to leave after 60 yrs old with a decent pension income do so. For every one I know who elected to stick around because they enjoyed their job , five others said nope we are done. On both counts it was a personal decision by those involved.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Post Reply

Return to “Air Canada”