Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

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cloak
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

#51 Post by cloak » Thu May 10, 2018 9:24 pm

FL410AV8R wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 10:18 pm

Firstly comparing grocery store chains to airlines is quite a leap but if you must go there, I don't believe the employees at No Frills make 40% less than their undoubtedly underpaid counterparts at Loblaws...
Some one mentioned this may "have implications for all labour in Canada" and my point was that this approach already exists in many industries. You may think that airlines are above the rest, but corporate law does not. Not exactly sure how much, but in fact there is quite a bit of difference in compensation between Loblaws and No Frills, just as there is quite a bit of difference in their products. In fact, this example is quite similar to Swoop and WestJet. There is nothing stopping a corporation to start or acquire another company to serve a different segment of the market, especially if it benefits consumers. All the corporation has to do is to show no material job loss results in other segments (within reason). This does not include opportunities for growth. A corporation is under no obligation to provide growth opportunities for its staff indefinitely into the future. It may be considered good business, but not mandatory.
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

#52 Post by pigboat » Mon May 14, 2018 5:19 pm

cloak wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 9:24 pm
FL410AV8R wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 10:18 pm

Firstly comparing grocery store chains to airlines is quite a leap but if you must go there, I don't believe the employees at No Frills make 40% less than their undoubtedly underpaid counterparts at Loblaws...
Some one mentioned this may "have implications for all labour in Canada" and my point was that this approach already exists in many industries. You may think that airlines are above the rest, but corporate law does not. Not exactly sure how much, but in fact there is quite a bit of difference in compensation between Loblaws and No Frills, just as there is quite a bit of difference in their products. In fact, this example is quite similar to Swoop and WestJet. There is nothing stopping a corporation to start or acquire another company to serve a different segment of the market, especially if it benefits consumers. All the corporation has to do is to show no material job loss results in other segments (within reason). This does not include opportunities for growth. A corporation is under no obligation to provide growth opportunities for its staff indefinitely into the future. It may be considered good business, but not mandatory.
Guess What.
When you take Aircraft out of one division and give them to ANOTHER WHOLLY OWNED Division : that is solid grounds for filling and WINNING a Common Employer filling. The first day that SWOOP goes flying then the UNION files for Common employer.................The Union will win this one hands down. Read your labor code.
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

#53 Post by tbaylx » Mon May 14, 2018 5:33 pm

pigboat wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 5:19 pm
cloak wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 9:24 pm
FL410AV8R wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 10:18 pm

Firstly comparing grocery store chains to airlines is quite a leap but if you must go there, I don't believe the employees at No Frills make 40% less than their undoubtedly underpaid counterparts at Loblaws...
Some one mentioned this may "have implications for all labour in Canada" and my point was that this approach already exists in many industries. You may think that airlines are above the rest, but corporate law does not. Not exactly sure how much, but in fact there is quite a bit of difference in compensation between Loblaws and No Frills, just as there is quite a bit of difference in their products. In fact, this example is quite similar to Swoop and WestJet. There is nothing stopping a corporation to start or acquire another company to serve a different segment of the market, especially if it benefits consumers. All the corporation has to do is to show no material job loss results in other segments (within reason). This does not include opportunities for growth. A corporation is under no obligation to provide growth opportunities for its staff indefinitely into the future. It may be considered good business, but not mandatory.
Guess What.
When you take Aircraft out of one division and give them to ANOTHER WHOLLY OWNED Division : that is solid grounds for filling and WINNING a Common Employer filling. The first day that SWOOP goes flying then the UNION files for Common employer.................The Union will win this one hands down. Read your labor code.
If it's a slam dunk then ALPA would have applied for common employer on day 1. The CIRB has clearly ruled before that it's not enough for the two companies to be owned by the same parent to trigger common employer. It's not as black and white as you make it out and a common employer ruling is unlikely given previous case rulings (see bell expressvue for one example). There are employees on the property now, no need to wait until aircraft go flying if they want to file for common employer.
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

#54 Post by lostaviator » Mon May 14, 2018 5:46 pm

tbaylx wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 5:33 pm

If it's a slam dunk then ALPA would have applied for common employer on day 1. The CIRB has clearly ruled before that it's not enough for the two companies to be owned by the same parent to trigger common employer. It's not as black and white as you make it out and a common employer ruling is unlikely given previous case rulings (see bell expressvue for one example). There are employees on the property now, no need to wait until aircraft go flying if they want to file for common employer.
I'd encourage you to reach out to a member of your LEC/MEC, or attend an update meeting. There is a reason for no filing of a common employer as of this time.
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

#55 Post by complexintentions » Mon May 14, 2018 6:42 pm

cloak wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 9:24 pm
There is nothing stopping a corporation to start or acquire another company to serve a different segment of the market, especially if it benefits consumers. All the corporation has to do is to show no material job loss results in other segments (within reason). This does not include opportunities for growth. A corporation is under no obligation to provide growth opportunities for its staff indefinitely into the future. It may be considered good business, but not mandatory.
This comment is instructive.

A great deal of the objection to Swoop appears based on the threat it poses to WestJet pilot career prospects. But career progression is not the same as being employed.

I think it will be easy for WestJet to show that Swoop won't cost jobs at WestJet - the lower cost structure itself supports the premise that they are targeting an entirely different market segment than mainline. Conversely, ALPA will have a much harder time trying to claim that Swoop will cost WestJet jobs. How do you prove a negative?

An FO whose upgrade is delayed is not the same as an FO who is laid off. As unpalatable as it sounds, WestJet's primary obligation as a corporation is not to advance the careers of its employees.
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

#56 Post by Fanblade » Mon May 14, 2018 8:44 pm

This is EXACTLY why you need scope language. Which WJ pilots have. They contractually own the work unless it is negotiated otherwise.

WJ pilots have shown no willingness to negotiate thier contractual right away. WJ’s only option now is a lockout to force a change.

That is not a viable solution for WJ. This is why Saretsky is gone. His plan. It failed. He died on it.

Make no mistake though. The WJ BOD was all behind the plan until it put them in a corner.
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

#57 Post by LegalWeedKiller » Tue May 15, 2018 12:02 am

How long would a decision on common employer take from the CIRB?

1 year, 2 years?

All the while swoop is flying and expanding.

The time to end this fiasco is now!
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

#58 Post by Boreas » Tue May 15, 2018 2:38 am

complexintentions wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 6:42 pm
cloak wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 9:24 pm
There is nothing stopping a corporation to start or acquire another company to serve a different segment of the market, especially if it benefits consumers. All the corporation has to do is to show no material job loss results in other segments (within reason). This does not include opportunities for growth. A corporation is under no obligation to provide growth opportunities for its staff indefinitely into the future. It may be considered good business, but not mandatory.
This comment is instructive.

A great deal of the objection to Swoop appears based on the threat it poses to WestJet pilot career prospects. But career progression is not the same as being employed.

I think it will be easy for WestJet to show that Swoop won't cost jobs at WestJet - the lower cost structure itself supports the premise that they are targeting an entirely different market segment than mainline. Conversely, ALPA will have a much harder time trying to claim that Swoop will cost WestJet jobs. How do you prove a negative?

An FO whose upgrade is delayed is not the same as an FO who is laid off. As unpalatable as it sounds, WestJet's primary obligation as a corporation is not to advance the careers of its employees.
Pro-industry Canadian Labor laws can beat it. They need to change!

Corporations need to made profit, everyone gets that. WJ is certainly doing that. Unfortunately, the late-stage capitalist environment we're in requires corporations to do so regardless of the effect it has on its employees - either immediate and long term. Don't accept that! Your future is important!

If a corporation is willing to screw you over - long term or short term - screw it over first!

If it goes under, it goes under - we all know it won't happen in WJ's case. Another one will replace it. Work there. Unionize. Negotiate decent WAWCON. Strike if necessary!
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

#59 Post by Flyingsquirrelsuck » Tue May 15, 2018 5:19 am

complexintentions wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 6:42 pm
cloak wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 9:24 pm
There is nothing stopping a corporation to start or acquire another company to serve a different segment of the market, especially if it benefits consumers. All the corporation has to do is to show no material job loss results in other segments (within reason). This does not include opportunities for growth. A corporation is under no obligation to provide growth opportunities for its staff indefinitely into the future. It may be considered good business, but not mandatory.
This comment is instructive.

A great deal of the objection to Swoop appears based on the threat it poses to WestJet pilot career prospects. But career progression is not the same as being employed.

I think it will be easy for WestJet to show that Swoop won't cost jobs at WestJet - the lower cost structure itself supports the premise that they are targeting an entirely different market segment than mainline. Conversely, ALPA will have a much harder time trying to claim that Swoop will cost WestJet jobs. How do you prove a negative?

An FO whose upgrade is delayed is not the same as an FO who is laid off. As unpalatable as it sounds, WestJet's primary obligation as a corporation is not to advance the careers of its employees.
No clue!!! I’m glad your not a pilot
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

#60 Post by altiplano » Tue May 15, 2018 7:11 am

I think complex has a point, and he has it right how people will look at it.

Most arbitrators won't get it... you keep your position - "no job losses" - but you atrophy as a forever-FO while your mainline shrinks and the flying goes to B-scale...

Most on the outside of this industry won't see a problem with that. "You kept your job"...

That's why SCOPE it's so important. That's why you have to stop your flying from being transferred away in the first place... toothpaste back in the tube if you let it out...
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

#61 Post by lostaviator » Tue May 15, 2018 11:25 am

Will be interesting is to see how they "register" these planes....

The ones being repainted are keeping their WJ civil registration which is still owned by "WestJet" after a quick search online and there is no operating certificate under a name of Swoop.
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

#62 Post by DutyFree » Tue May 15, 2018 12:15 pm

You guys are getting messy! Stick to point and remember what it is you all worked for.


Here is some perspective and motivation.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/sou ... w-contract
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

#63 Post by DutyFree » Tue May 15, 2018 12:49 pm

DutyFree wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 12:15 pm
You guys are getting messy! Stick to point and remember what it is you all worked for.


Here is some perspective and motivation.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/sou ... w-contract

A new negotiating team was put in place, with talks between the union and Southwest starting back up in March under the supervision of a federal mediator. While negotiations took place behind closed doors, the union organized pilots to publicly picket at Love Field and other airports around the country.
Billboards and other advertisements criticized Southwest for the protracted negotiations at a time of record profitability for the company. Southwest earned $2.2 billion in profit in 2015, the most in the company's 43-year history.

Despite the pitched rhetoric, a tentative agreement was reached in August that provided pilots with the financial benefits they sought without major changes to the work rules that affect their quality of life, working conditions and job security.


And for all the tin foil kids out there, I’m no troll. Just a Canadien pilot that has cut his teeth plenty.

Keep ur spirits up.
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

#64 Post by TheStig » Tue May 15, 2018 2:55 pm

altiplano wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 7:11 am
I think complex has a point, and he has it right how people will look at it.

Most arbitrators won't get it... you keep your position - "no job losses" - but you atrophy as a forever-FO while your mainline shrinks and the flying goes to B-scale...

Most on the outside of this industry won't see a problem with that. "You kept your job"...

That's why SCOPE it's so important. That's why you have to stop your flying from being transferred away in the first place... toothpaste back in the tube if you let it out...
I'm sure the WJ ALPA MEC shares your opinion.

In ACPA's/AC's 2011(?) TA1 the E175's were protected my scope language. The airline altered the contract language in their FOS submission to remove those aircraft in exchange for job protection language, of coarse, the E175's were at Sky Regional within months.

I'd be curious to know how much ground WJ and ALPA have covered, because Swoops' June start up is quickly approaching and even simply having both side agree on the the frame work of a contract can take months.

Swoop will commence operations (the executives know their jobs depend on it), will the pilots strike or continue negotiations? Neither side wants a labour stoppage, and the pilots should want to avoid arbitration which the Fed's might mandate.

Just thinking outside the box a bit what about reaching a Memorandum of Understanding whereby the pilots agree to let Swoop commence operations with the trained outside pilots, with the Swoop fleet limited to 4-6 aircraft in exchange for a 150% pay increase for WJ pilots until a new agreement is reached. Of coarse there would have to be a number of conditions applied for both sides, such as an expiry date, and agreements in principle on a number of areas of the contract, and that Swoop positions will be flown by WJ pilots in the agreement.

But time is a big factor, and tensions need to de escalate a little breathing room would help.
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

#65 Post by Greenbastard » Tue May 15, 2018 4:14 pm

Firstly, this is not about Swoop existing. This about WJ/APLA pilots flying Swoop at whatever conditions are negotiated. Secondly, this about CB demanding this be flown by non union pilots, at any price. It’s not good business it’s personal, and it shows. WJ
pilots will strike over this if necessary, and soon.
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

#66 Post by Demeter » Tue May 15, 2018 5:50 pm

Take a breath j. Take a breath :rolleyes: you’ve never been happy so don’t let this get to you! Life’s too short!
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

#67 Post by cloak » Tue May 15, 2018 9:57 pm

Boreas wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 2:38 am
....
If a corporation is willing to screw you over - long term or short term - screw it over first!

If it goes under, it goes under - we all know it won't happen in WJ's case. Another one will replace it. Work there. Unionize. Negotiate decent WAWCON. Strike if necessary!
Wow!! Brave words gambling with others' jobs! "If it goes under", there is no way that pay and working conditions are going to be as good at a new airline, never mind better!!
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

#68 Post by Boreas » Wed May 16, 2018 1:30 am

cloak wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 9:57 pm
Boreas wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 2:38 am
....
If a corporation is willing to screw you over - long term or short term - screw it over first!

If it goes under, it goes under - we all know it won't happen in WJ's case. Another one will replace it. Work there. Unionize. Negotiate decent WAWCON. Strike if necessary!
Wow!! Brave words gambling with others' jobs! "If it goes under", there is no way that pay and working conditions are going to be as good at a new airline, never mind better!!
You have to get mad to get things done sometimes.

What has being calm and passive done for Canadian aviation? We're some of the lowest paid airline pilots in the world... Factor in how much we get taxed and how much it costs to live here and tell me thats not reason to get a little angry.
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

#69 Post by cloak » Wed May 16, 2018 5:50 am

Bingo, therein lies the problem:over-taxation.... misplaced anger won't help.
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

#70 Post by tsgas » Wed May 16, 2018 9:33 pm

pilots don't pay any higher taxes then any of the other working stiffs in the country. :cry:
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

#71 Post by Rowdy » Thu May 17, 2018 7:31 am

tsgas wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:33 pm
pilots don't pay any higher taxes then any of the other working stiffs in the country. :cry:
Dollar for dollar that is true. However our tax structure is based on earnings and the more you make, the more you pay.
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

#72 Post by atphat » Thu May 17, 2018 9:10 am

tsgas wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:33 pm
pilots don't pay any higher taxes then any of the other working stiffs in the country. :cry:
I pay more tax than almost every person I know. In fact most “working stiffs” still think I should pay more. :roll:
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

#73 Post by pigboat » Fri May 18, 2018 4:47 am

atphat wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 9:10 am
tsgas wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:33 pm
pilots don't pay any higher taxes then any of the other working stiffs in the country. :cry:
I pay more tax than almost every person I know. In fact most “working stiffs” still think I should pay more. :roll:
When your tax rates reach over 50% of the dollar YOU earn; there is something Wrong with the tax laws. In Ontario, 52.5% goes to Little Justin and Catherine. Neither has the slightest clue of anyone that actually works for a living. I wonder how Justin survives on his daddy's trust funds.
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

#74 Post by altiplano » Fri May 18, 2018 12:12 pm

...
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

#75 Post by Diadem » Fri May 18, 2018 5:20 pm

pigboat wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 4:47 am
When your tax rates reach over 50% of the dollar YOU earn; there is something Wrong with the tax laws. In Ontario, 52.5% goes to Little Justin and Catherine. Neither has the slightest clue of anyone that actually works for a living. I wonder how Justin survives on his daddy's trust funds.
That's the marginal rate, not the average rate. In Ontario, you would have to literally make over $1 million/year in taxable income, assuming you got no deductions whatsoever, in order to lose over half your money to taxes.
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