Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

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jjj
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Re: Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

#51 Post by jjj » Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:44 am

tbaylx wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:33 am
jjj wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:42 pm
tbaylx wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:00 pm
So anyone taking your advice and not applying now so that wages can be on par will slot in as a DEC at $120K a year? Nope, he'd end up right seat on a Q for $40K a year.

Not much incentive for a DEC candidate looking to come home from overseas to wait for ALPA to try and argue common employer.

I get where ALPA is coming from but I wouldn't be vilifying anyone that wants a shot at a startup DEC spot. Like it or not Swoop is the best paying 705 DEC job in the country at the moment, and on par with other 737 operators (Sunwing, Transat, Flair, First Air, Canadian North)
I frankly don’t give a rat’s ass for the poor unfortunate expat who wants to come home with his pockets lined with cash. I do care about the First Officers that have already put in several years of service and don’t want the goal posts moved once again.

I’m sorry if that means a returning ex pat may only have a fair spot at the bottom of our list in recognition of his time served under WestJet and it’s affiliates.

I think the poor unfortunate expat will have a fair shot at retirement unlike the FOs around here if SWOOP gets out of the barn the way triple G wants it.
Since we're doing ignorant stereotypes I doubt the expat gives a rat's ass about a pimply faced millennial who came off a Navajo and sat right seat on a jet for a couple of years and now figures he's entitled to an upgrade.
:roll:
That pimple faced millennial has put his time in here. He has a family and has been a part of this airlines success. He could have gone elsewhere but he committed to WestJet for the long haul. The millennial in question kinda just wants the deal he signed up for.

When I get near retirement - why don’t I go to your shop and undercut your job. Perhaps even slide into a job senior to yours. I’ll do it for less but if it suits me for whatever reason then I suspect you won’t mind your career progression stalling out.
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Re: Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

#52 Post by GAF » Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:16 am

Exactly. ⬆️
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tbaylx
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Re: Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

#53 Post by tbaylx » Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:24 am

jjj wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:44 am
tbaylx wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:33 am
jjj wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:42 pm


I frankly don’t give a rat’s ass for the poor unfortunate expat who wants to come home with his pockets lined with cash. I do care about the First Officers that have already put in several years of service and don’t want the goal posts moved once again.

I’m sorry if that means a returning ex pat may only have a fair spot at the bottom of our list in recognition of his time served under WestJet and it’s affiliates.

I think the poor unfortunate expat will have a fair shot at retirement unlike the FOs around here if SWOOP gets out of the barn the way triple G wants it.
Since we're doing ignorant stereotypes I doubt the expat gives a rat's ass about a pimply faced millennial who came off a Navajo and sat right seat on a jet for a couple of years and now figures he's entitled to an upgrade.
:roll:
That pimple faced millennial has put his time in here. He has a family and has been a part of this airlines success. He could have gone elsewhere but he committed to WestJet for the long haul. The millennial in question kinda just wants the deal he signed up for.

When I get near retirement - why don’t I go to your shop and undercut your job. Perhaps even slide into a job senior to yours. I’ll do it for less but if it suits me for whatever reason then I suspect you won’t mind your career progression stalling out.
The expat has put in his time, and likely a lot more of it in the industry and has a family too. And it's not really your shop, its kinda a new shop that supports yours. Guess that will be up to the CIRB though

So sure, if you're more qualified and are willing to accept the terms and conditions that seems pretty reasonable to me.
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Donald
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Re: Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

#54 Post by Donald » Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:49 am

jjj wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:44 am
He could have gone elsewhere but he committed to WestJet for the long haul.
Isn't the advice given earlier in this discussion, to not accept Swoop wages even if it means finding a job overseas?

In a way, haven't some ex-pats done you and your career a favour?
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Re: Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

#55 Post by jjj » Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:40 pm

Donald wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:49 am
jjj wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:44 am
He could have gone elsewhere but he committed to WestJet for the long haul.
Isn't the advice given earlier in this discussion, to not accept Swoop wages even if it means finding a job overseas?

In a way, haven't some ex-pats done you and your career a favour?
Donald,

The overseas jobs have held up the wages side of things. The attrition overseas has not had an effect yet on influencing wages here in the land of taxes.

For the sake of discussion though - to grant your argument does not logically justify undercutting pilots already established at an airline and its affiliates for a job they are qualified to do.

People have the right to do as they see fit. Just don’t do it under false pretences when people have clearly explained the politics of it all.

That is why I won’t make life difficult for anyone - just don’t expect me to be all cheery when I see a pink tied pilot doing a job at 50% of the current rate.
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Re: Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

#56 Post by Mach1 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:13 pm

tbaylx wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:24 am
And it's not really your shop, its kinda a new shop that supports yours.
Is it really a new shop? Let's ask you a few questions.

Where is the start up capital coming from?
Where is the management team coming from?
Where are the planes coming from?
Where is the operational support coming from?
Where is the maintenance support coming from?

The answer is the same to every one of these questions. Starts with a W. Ends with a T. Now, given that the money, management, equipment and ongoing support are all originating from one source and the only things not coming from that source are the pilots and the flight attendants, can it really be called a new shop? Yes, I am seriously asking if you believe that.
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jjj
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Re: Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

#57 Post by jjj » Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:51 pm

Don’t forget SWOOP is proposed to have an ESPP program as well. An employee share match of non other than WJA shares purchased on the TSX.

How much connective tissue does it take to get the point across?

Still think it’s a new shop?

Can I have some of what you’re smoking?

All I hear from the pro off-the-street-to-SWOOP crowd is two things:

1. False pretences about what SWOOP is to excuse the conscious of an individual who is knowingly undercutting his peers.

2. It doesn’t affect me so I don’t care.

JJJ
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Re: Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

#58 Post by Blue42 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:56 pm

#37 wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:22 am
Realitychex wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:48 am
You are in la la land if you don't think there's an opportunity for a ULCC in Canada.

Is it as big an opportunity as the opportunity WJ had to exploit a void in 1996? Probably not. But it's there and WJ needs to absolutely dominate and control it in order to protect the larger franchise. Take a quick look at what jetsgo did to WJ over an 18 month window and thank your lucky stars it was run by Mike the White and not someone who knew what they were doing.

Remember what happened to Canadian when they wouldn't / couldn't protect their back door from 1996 to late 1999?

Be very thankful none of the current crop of ULCC wannabees that have been floating around the market for 5 years have gotten their poop in a group. If a WJ 2.0 started tomorrow, led by some bright, energetic guys, like WJ 1.0 22 years ago, WJ pilots would have a hell of a lot more things to worry about than figuring out how to give WJ the flexibility to operate a dozen tails to be able to protect pilots, (and others) long term career prospects by operating Swoop, with legitimate, no BS, low costs.

WJ ALPA leader need to ensure that they selfishly protect WJ ALPA pilots first, and THEN ALPA pilots second. ALPA could give a tinkers cuss what happens to WJ pilots in the long run as WJ pilots represent a miniscule % of their overall membership.

ALPA would like to see every ULCC / new entrant disappear to ensure status quo amongst their largest pilot groups. It's never going to happen. Stubbornly posturing as if it will is the height of arrogance. And to believe that someone out there won't come up with a business plan and the right people to do it correctly is complete foolishness. AC, CP, C3, Royal others thought the same thing in 1996. All declared bankruptcy and 3/4 failed.

More than most, pilots should be more than familiar with the term "stay ahead of the power curve".

8)
I guess I'm in lala land.
Rather than an opportunity for a ULCC in Canada your post seems to indicate that it isn't possible.
Jetsgo, failed
Other potential entrants "can't get their poop in a group".
You then refer to a vague threat of WJA 2.0 "with bright energetic guys like WJ 1.0" but fail to recognize that WJ 1.0 purposefully moved away from Low cost in order to make cold hard cash and grow.
I'm going to add, Flair appears to be rapidly moving away from it's approach to ULCC.
If we move on from your shakey analysis, you make some dramatic assumptions with regards to the WestJet pilot group and ALPA that have no foundation.
Given that the original announcement of SWOOP contained reference to WestJet pilots approval, and frozen Working conditions outlining where the pilots for SWOOP must come from, and the fact that both of these items have been ignored. Add a flexible outline (is it ten, or 40 aircraft?) Throw in a dose of awareness that the model to be followed is Jetstar, and you don't have to be a genius to figure out that the average WestJet pilot is not going to see the external "can't get their poop in a group" as a threat, but rather see a looming internal threat.
You can fantasize about potential external threats all you want, they are still just fantasy. You can't ignore the perception of an internal threat, no matter what side of the labour fence you fall on.
So, I'm in LA la Land. Throw me a bone.
Sorry but you're definitely in la la land if you think the pilot group will get any say or vote on a business decision anymore. The Swoop announcement was prior to ALPA being voted in, having the ability to vote on company decisions was a great thing. That is gone now. This makes it easier for the company now for sure. A business decision is a business decision, the pilots get no say and all they can do is negotiate now. Do you think the AC guys got vote on the closure of Rouge YVR pilot base?? Way to go ALPA!!! Another one in the win column.
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Re: Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

#59 Post by GAF » Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:08 pm

"Having the ability to vote on company decisions" prior to ALPA. Hahaha. That's cute. I couldn't imagine the mess we would be in right now without ALPA.
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Re: Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

#60 Post by musicalpilotchairs » Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:20 pm

Blue42 wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:56 pm
#37 wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:22 am
Realitychex wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:48 am
You are in la la land if you don't think there's an opportunity for a ULCC in Canada.

Is it as big an opportunity as the opportunity WJ had to exploit a void in 1996? Probably not. But it's there and WJ needs to absolutely dominate and control it in order to protect the larger franchise. Take a quick look at what jetsgo did to WJ over an 18 month window and thank your lucky stars it was run by Mike the White and not someone who knew what they were doing.

Remember what happened to Canadian when they wouldn't / couldn't protect their back door from 1996 to late 1999?

Be very thankful none of the current crop of ULCC wannabees that have been floating around the market for 5 years have gotten their poop in a group. If a WJ 2.0 started tomorrow, led by some bright, energetic guys, like WJ 1.0 22 years ago, WJ pilots would have a hell of a lot more things to worry about than figuring out how to give WJ the flexibility to operate a dozen tails to be able to protect pilots, (and others) long term career prospects by operating Swoop, with legitimate, no BS, low costs.

WJ ALPA leader need to ensure that they selfishly protect WJ ALPA pilots first, and THEN ALPA pilots second. ALPA could give a tinkers cuss what happens to WJ pilots in the long run as WJ pilots represent a miniscule % of their overall membership.

ALPA would like to see every ULCC / new entrant disappear to ensure status quo amongst their largest pilot groups. It's never going to happen. Stubbornly posturing as if it will is the height of arrogance. And to believe that someone out there won't come up with a business plan and the right people to do it correctly is complete foolishness. AC, CP, C3, Royal others thought the same thing in 1996. All declared bankruptcy and 3/4 failed.

More than most, pilots should be more than familiar with the term "stay ahead of the power curve".

8)
I guess I'm in lala land.
Rather than an opportunity for a ULCC in Canada your post seems to indicate that it isn't possible.
Jetsgo, failed
Other potential entrants "can't get their poop in a group".
You then refer to a vague threat of WJA 2.0 "with bright energetic guys like WJ 1.0" but fail to recognize that WJ 1.0 purposefully moved away from Low cost in order to make cold hard cash and grow.
I'm going to add, Flair appears to be rapidly moving away from it's approach to ULCC.
If we move on from your shakey analysis, you make some dramatic assumptions with regards to the WestJet pilot group and ALPA that have no foundation.
Given that the original announcement of SWOOP contained reference to WestJet pilots approval, and frozen Working conditions outlining where the pilots for SWOOP must come from, and the fact that both of these items have been ignored. Add a flexible outline (is it ten, or 40 aircraft?) Throw in a dose of awareness that the model to be followed is Jetstar, and you don't have to be a genius to figure out that the average WestJet pilot is not going to see the external "can't get their poop in a group" as a threat, but rather see a looming internal threat.
You can fantasize about potential external threats all you want, they are still just fantasy. You can't ignore the perception of an internal threat, no matter what side of the labour fence you fall on.
So, I'm in LA la Land. Throw me a bone.
Sorry but you're definitely in la la land if you think the pilot group will get any say or vote on a business decision anymore. The Swoop announcement was prior to ALPA being voted in, having the ability to vote on company decisions was a great thing. That is gone now. This makes it easier for the company now for sure. A business decision is a business decision, the pilots get no say and all they can do is negotiate now. Do you think the AC guys got vote on the closure of Rouge YVR pilot base?? Way to go ALPA!!! Another one in the win column.
You are definitely in La La land if you think that a lip service vote opportunity given to the pilots or any other employee group from the exec for Encore or anything else actuallly meant something.
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Re: Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

#61 Post by FICU » Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:57 pm

jjj wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:40 pm
That is why I won’t make life difficult for anyone - just don’t expect me to be all cheery when I see a pink tied pilot doing a job at 50% of the current rate.
I believe the Swoop uniforms will come with 2 ties... a pink one for in the airplane and a black one for walking through the terminal.
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Re: Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

#62 Post by Blue42 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:15 pm

GAF wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:08 pm
"Having the ability to vote on company decisions" prior to ALPA. Hahaha. That's cute. I couldn't imagine the mess we would be in right now without ALPA.
Yeah, you're right.....this is so much better! :lol:
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Re: Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

#63 Post by YVR Lurker » Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:55 am

Blue42, the pilot group has never been a party to input on company decisions. We may have been led to believe that our input was valued but that was window dressing.

G
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Re: Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

#64 Post by tbaylx » Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:23 am

Mach1 wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:13 pm
tbaylx wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:24 am
And it's not really your shop, its kinda a new shop that supports yours.
Is it really a new shop? Let's ask you a few questions.

Where is the start up capital coming from?
Where is the management team coming from?
Where are the planes coming from?
Where is the operational support coming from?
Where is the maintenance support coming from?

The answer is the same to every one of these questions. Starts with a W. Ends with a T. Now, given that the money, management, equipment and ongoing support are all originating from one source and the only things not coming from that source are the pilots and the flight attendants, can it really be called a new shop? Yes, I am seriously asking if you believe that.
Sounds like encore. Are they being flown by WestJet pilots on the same seniority list making mainline wages?
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mbav8r
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Re: Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

#65 Post by mbav8r » Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:32 am

Is it really a new shop? Let's ask you a few questions.

Where is the start up capital coming from?
Where is the management team coming from?
Where are the planes coming from?
Where is the operational support coming from?
Where is the maintenance support coming from?

The answer is the same to every one of these questions. Starts with a W. Ends with a T. Now, given that the money, management, equipment and ongoing support are all originating from one source and the only things not coming from that source are the pilots and the flight attendants, can it really be called a new shop? Yes, I am seriously asking if you believe that.
tbaylx wrote;
Sounds like encore. Are they being flown by WestJet pilots on the same seniority list making mainline wages?
Are you completely ignorant?
Encore flys Q400s for lower wages, swoop proposes lower wages on the same equipment, can you see the difference?
Blue42, the language in the previous agreement that amounts to a scope clause, which is locked in now gives you a say on a business decision like this, they can paint the plane whatever colour they want but it has to be WJ pilots at the controls.
The thing I find most disturbing is, it appears some WJ pilots are ok with this.
I’m neither a WJ pilot or ok with this and hope very much the decision lands in the pilots favour!
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Re: Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

#66 Post by tbaylx » Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:40 am

mbav8r wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:32 am
Is it really a new shop? Let's ask you a few questions.

Where is the start up capital coming from?
Where is the management team coming from?
Where are the planes coming from?
Where is the operational support coming from?
Where is the maintenance support coming from?

The answer is the same to every one of these questions. Starts with a W. Ends with a T. Now, given that the money, management, equipment and ongoing support are all originating from one source and the only things not coming from that source are the pilots and the flight attendants, can it really be called a new shop? Yes, I am seriously asking if you believe that.
tbaylx wrote;
Sounds like encore. Are they being flown by WestJet pilots on the same seniority list making mainline wages?
Are you completely ignorant?
Encore flys Q400s for lower wages, swoop proposes lower wages on the same equipment, can you see the difference?
Blue42, the language in the previous agreement that amounts to a scope clause, which is locked in now gives you a say on a business decision like this, they can paint the plane whatever colour they want but it has to be WJ pilots at the controls.
The thing I find most disturbing is, it appears some WJ pilots are ok with this.
I’m neither a WJ pilot or ok with this and hope very much the decision lands in the pilots favour!
So it's ok as long as it's not the same equipment? How bout C series, would that be ok? Or E190's?
Just trying to figure out how this works, cause at the moment guys are saying any airline that WestJet comes up with is their shop/work, but that didn't seem to apply to Encore. So as long as the new airline isn't flying 737's then no one is interested? It's not just about the wages it's about a common seniority list. There isn't one with Encore but now there should be one with Swoop? What if the wages were the same as mainline but the seniority lists were split still, then is it ok? Knowing pilots I'd bet that if they were operating 757's but paid the same as mainline and opened it up to mainline pilots you'd have a bunch of takers.

Seems like a bit of a double standard and a precedent if I was at the CIRB looking at it.

The whole moral "you're bringing down the industry" argument doesn't hold water. Call it like it is, it's pilots wanting to look out for themselves. It's a bit hypocritical to then call out others for doing the same.
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Re: Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

#67 Post by #37 » Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:01 am

Blue42 wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:56 pm
#37 wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:22 am
Realitychex wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:48 am
You are in la la land if you don't think there's an opportunity for a ULCC in Canada.

Is it as big an opportunity as the opportunity WJ had to exploit a void in 1996? Probably not. But it's there and WJ needs to absolutely dominate and control it in order to protect the larger franchise. Take a quick look at what jetsgo did to WJ over an 18 month window and thank your lucky stars it was run by Mike the White and not someone who knew what they were doing.

Remember what happened to Canadian when they wouldn't / couldn't protect their back door from 1996 to late 1999?

Be very thankful none of the current crop of ULCC wannabees that have been floating around the market for 5 years have gotten their poop in a group. If a WJ 2.0 started tomorrow, led by some bright, energetic guys, like WJ 1.0 22 years ago, WJ pilots would have a hell of a lot more things to worry about than figuring out how to give WJ the flexibility to operate a dozen tails to be able to protect pilots, (and others) long term career prospects by operating Swoop, with legitimate, no BS, low costs.

WJ ALPA leader need to ensure that they selfishly protect WJ ALPA pilots first, and THEN ALPA pilots second. ALPA could give a tinkers cuss what happens to WJ pilots in the long run as WJ pilots represent a miniscule % of their overall membership.

ALPA would like to see every ULCC / new entrant disappear to ensure status quo amongst their largest pilot groups. It's never going to happen. Stubbornly posturing as if it will is the height of arrogance. And to believe that someone out there won't come up with a business plan and the right people to do it correctly is complete foolishness. AC, CP, C3, Royal others thought the same thing in 1996. All declared bankruptcy and 3/4 failed.

More than most, pilots should be more than familiar with the term "stay ahead of the power curve".

8)
I guess I'm in lala land.
Rather than an opportunity for a ULCC in Canada your post seems to indicate that it isn't possible.
Jetsgo, failed
Other potential entrants "can't get their poop in a group".
You then refer to a vague threat of WJA 2.0 "with bright energetic guys like WJ 1.0" but fail to recognize that WJ 1.0 purposefully moved away from Low cost in order to make cold hard cash and grow.
I'm going to add, Flair appears to be rapidly moving away from it's approach to ULCC.
If we move on from your shakey analysis, you make some dramatic assumptions with regards to the WestJet pilot group and ALPA that have no foundation.
Given that the original announcement of SWOOP contained reference to WestJet pilots approval, and frozen Working conditions outlining where the pilots for SWOOP must come from, and the fact that both of these items have been ignored. Add a flexible outline (is it ten, or 40 aircraft?) Throw in a dose of awareness that the model to be followed is Jetstar, and you don't have to be a genius to figure out that the average WestJet pilot is not going to see the external "can't get their poop in a group" as a threat, but rather see a looming internal threat.
You can fantasize about potential external threats all you want, they are still just fantasy. You can't ignore the perception of an internal threat, no matter what side of the labour fence you fall on.
So, I'm in LA la Land. Throw me a bone.
Sorry but you're definitely in la la land if you think the pilot group will get any say or vote on a business decision anymore. The Swoop announcement was prior to ALPA being voted in, having the ability to vote on company decisions was a great thing. That is gone now. This makes it easier for the company now for sure. A business decision is a business decision, the pilots get no say and all they can do is negotiate now. Do you think the AC guys got vote on the closure of Rouge YVR pilot base?? Way to go ALPA!!! Another one in the win column.
Who said anything about a vote???
Say in business decision??? That happens every day, everywhere when it effects you. Often depends on the size of your balls, influencing factor is how valuable corporation X views the Outlook and vision of it's employees etc etc, but yes it happens all the time. And no, the post wasn't about that.
ALPA wasn't even involved in anything Rouge, tough thing building up a anti-ALPA framework in your mind when you can't hold on to the basics. So go back reread and note that I was questioning realitychecks justification of of SWOOP.
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Re: Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

#68 Post by flyinhigh » Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:08 am

tbaylx wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:40 am

So it's ok as long as it's not the same equipment? How bout C series, would that be ok? Or E190's?
Just trying to figure out how this works, cause at the moment guys are saying any airline that WestJet comes up with is their shop/work, but that didn't seem to apply to Encore. So as long as the new airline isn't flying 737's then no one is interested? It's not just about the wages it's about a common seniority list. There isn't one with Encore but now there should be one with Swoop? What if the wages were the same as mainline but the seniority lists were split still, then is it ok? Knowing pilots I'd bet that if they were operating 757's but paid the same as mainline and opened it up to mainline pilots you'd have a bunch of takers.

Seems like a bit of a double standard and a precedent if I was at the CIRB looking at it.

The whole moral "you're bringing down the industry" argument doesn't hold water. Call it like it is, it's pilots wanting to look out for themselves. It's a bit hypocritical to then call out others for doing the same.
You clearly don't understand the situation. All Westjet planes are flown by the westjet pilot list, and that is what we want. Encore is a Q400, so yes it has a different pay structure. If another type came in, than all Westjet pilots want to negotiate that aircraft type to be flown by the westjet pilots, (i.e.. Air Canada with the 8 different types, transat, etc.) or do I need to list more examples.

When one company that operates a specific type of aircraft, wants to start another operation with the same aircraft from the existing fleet and pay 40% less there is a serious flaw. The business's know this, and these web boards prove it. The fact there is so many on here that think it will be cool to fly for 90K as Captain on a 37 (By the way, westjet pilots are already the 2nd lowest paid in north america amongst most operators, hell even allegiant pays the same as what westjet mainline 37 guys get) and work 90 credit hours a month, for $2.50 hr periderm shows that companies will continue to do this, because they will always find some shmuck to fly it that thinks its cool.
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Re: Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

#69 Post by tbaylx » Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:51 am

flyinhigh wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:08 am
tbaylx wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:40 am

So it's ok as long as it's not the same equipment? How bout C series, would that be ok? Or E190's?
Just trying to figure out how this works, cause at the moment guys are saying any airline that WestJet comes up with is their shop/work, but that didn't seem to apply to Encore. So as long as the new airline isn't flying 737's then no one is interested? It's not just about the wages it's about a common seniority list. There isn't one with Encore but now there should be one with Swoop? What if the wages were the same as mainline but the seniority lists were split still, then is it ok? Knowing pilots I'd bet that if they were operating 757's but paid the same as mainline and opened it up to mainline pilots you'd have a bunch of takers.

Seems like a bit of a double standard and a precedent if I was at the CIRB looking at it.

The whole moral "you're bringing down the industry" argument doesn't hold water. Call it like it is, it's pilots wanting to look out for themselves. It's a bit hypocritical to then call out others for doing the same.
You clearly don't understand the situation. All Westjet planes are flown by the westjet pilot list, and that is what we want. Encore is a Q400, so yes it has a different pay structure. If another type came in, than all Westjet pilots want to negotiate that aircraft type to be flown by the westjet pilots, (i.e.. Air Canada with the 8 different types, transat, etc.) or do I need to list more examples.

When one company that operates a specific type of aircraft, wants to start another operation with the same aircraft from the existing fleet and pay 40% less there is a serious flaw. The business's know this, and these web boards prove it. The fact there is so many on here that think it will be cool to fly for 90K as Captain on a 37 (By the way, westjet pilots are already the 2nd lowest paid in north america amongst most operators, hell even allegiant pays the same as what westjet mainline 37 guys get) and work 90 credit hours a month, for $2.50 hr periderm shows that companies will continue to do this, because they will always find some shmuck to fly it that thinks its cool.
Guess I don't understand it. So when an Encore pilot moves to mainline he can bid into the fleet with his date of hire from encore? ie it's one list between westjet and encore? Pilots can freely bid back and forth keeping seniority between the two? Because simply giving flow through with a reserved number is not the same as one list and does not make an Encore pilot a WestJet pilot until he actually leaves Encore. How is it then that Encore has it's own union and I'm assuming it's own seniority list. Because if not then Encore is no different than Swoop.

If there is one list and one union then I stand corrected.
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Re: Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

#70 Post by seriousflyer » Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:42 pm

Tbaylx- you kinda are annoying to listen to, your condescending tone bothers me. You clearly don't understand the current areegment, the fundamentals of a statutory freeze, and the common goal Westjet/encore pilots are working for. We are negotiating for a progressive contract.

Your answer to the latter passive aggressive question you asked is; we are all ONE LIST and all ALPA. We are not merged MECs (yet) but coordinate and mutually support one and another daily.

When an Encore pilot flows to Westjet or otherwise said when a Q400 pilot flows to the Boeings, the pilot senorirty # is carried over. It is a truly unique agreement in North America
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Re: Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

#71 Post by tbaylx » Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:10 pm

Fair enough, thanks for trying to explain it then. I'm unfortunately well aware of contract negations and all that goes with it.

The condescending tone can be dragged out of me by other posts on this forum, no offence intended.
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Re: Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

#72 Post by Mach1 » Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:01 pm

mbav8r wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:32 am
Are you completely ignorant?
No he's not. What he is doing is changing the subject.
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Re: Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

#73 Post by complexintentions » Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:59 am

flyinhigh wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:08 am
When one company that operates a specific type of aircraft, wants to start another operation with the same aircraft from the existing fleet and pay 40% less there is a serious flaw.
Is this not what Rouge did? Moved tails from AC mainline and put pilots on a lower pay scale? Seems to have worked extremely well for them.
flyinhigh wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:08 am
The fact there is so many on here that think it will be cool to fly for 90K as Captain on a 37 (By the way, westjet pilots are already the 2nd lowest paid in north america amongst most operators, hell even allegiant pays the same as what westjet mainline 37 guys get)
Hmmm. For years you couldn't stop WestJet pilots from talking about how much money they made - but now it's crap? Does this mean you're undercutting Allegiant and bringing the whole industry down by accepting lower wages for similar work? Why didn't you put your money where your mouth is and refuse to take these WestJet jobs and the pitiful wages that go with them?

Only making the point that these arguments can be spun both ways.

If the market capacity and people willing to work for the wages are there, Swoop will succeed and make money for WestJet. Profitability for the company is good for all stakeholders. Yes, it would slow down the upgrades at WestJet, but in what world do people think that career progression is a higher priority of an employer than making money?

Or should be?
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Re: Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

#74 Post by seriousflyer » Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:42 am

Again - missing the point. @complexintentions

The viability of Swoop is debatable. What I hear you saying- If swoop can make money and improve revenues - pilots should work for less and just accept whatever letter of offer.

Why can't employees/pilots negotiate for wages that we want instead of just accepting whatever sh#t rolls down hill? Anybody with a Business degree working in downtown Calgary, are able to interview and negotiate compensation packages. I gather we can do the same thing.
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Re: Gregg Saretsky is the modern Frank Lorenzo

#75 Post by tbaylx » Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:47 am

Business people don't have to deal with union seniority and start at the bottom level every time they switch companies. They can negotiate what the market will bear based on their skillset they bring. Pilot's can't do that.
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