Everyday at WJ : union busting

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Go Guns
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Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

#51 Post by Go Guns » Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:08 am

Realitychex wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:20 am
Flair just announced a raft of expansion to YYJ, YXE, YYC, YVR, YXS etc.

You folks need to quit fiddling as Rome begins to burn and give the company the tools it needs to decisively deal with this very real threat to your careers.

If it’s not Flair, it’ll be someone else.

You want to protect your future at WS?

Shut, lock and brick up that back door.

Some of you are idealogically stuck in the trees when the forest you inhabit is expanding.

8)

The same thing could be said to the other side. WestJet had all the time in the world to sort this out in a matter that would benefit everyone involved. They chose a different route. Most of the drivers completely understand the need for Swoop and agree with it, they just don’t understand why the costs savings need to be off our backs.
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Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

#52 Post by countdown » Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:44 am

The MEC tells management that they expect all Swoop flying to be done by WJ pilots at WJ hourly rates - and they expect those rates to rise by 30 to 40% with a new contract. Not a great place to start negotiating rates for a ULCC. Swoop flying should have been negotiated as an equipment bid and a step up in salary and aircraft from Encore up through to mainline. The MEC has drawn a line in the sand and we're all going to burn for their stubbornness.
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Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

#53 Post by Bede » Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:11 am

countdown wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:44 am
The MEC tells management that they expect all Swoop flying to be done by WJ pilots at WJ hourly rates - and they expect those rates to rise by 30 to 40% with a new contract. Not a great place to start negotiating rates for a ULCC. Swoop flying should have been negotiated as an equipment bid and a step up in salary and aircraft from Encore up through to mainline. The MEC has drawn a line in the sand and we're all going to burn for their stubbornness.
I'm always interested to hear the rationale from the other side, but no one (mostly WeedPro/RottenApple/NCP) ever takes me up on it:

What is your interpretation of s. 10 of our agreement? Does the agreement not state that all flying is to be done by pilots on the WPDL? Does the agreement not define the WPDL? Do we not have an agreement stating pay rates for the B737?

May I ask, if you were on the MEC what would you do in this situation? Would you agree to an LOU setting the Swoop wages at their current level? Would you insist on scope? What would you do if the company didn't agree to your wishes?

I'm 100% with the MEC on this issue as is EVERY pilot (YYZ base) I have flown with (even those that voted no to ALPA).
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Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

#54 Post by Flyingsquirrelsuck » Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:22 am

countdown wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:44 am
The MEC tells management that they expect all Swoop flying to be done by WJ pilots at WJ hourly rates - and they expect those rates to rise by 30 to 40% with a new contract. Not a great place to start negotiating rates for a ULCC. Swoop flying should have been negotiated as an equipment bid and a step up in salary and aircraft from Encore up through to mainline. The MEC has drawn a line in the sand and we're all going to burn for their stubbornness.
But what about WJ management stating they want WJ pilots flying Swoop aircraft? They , WJ management took an adversarial stance on staffing this new venture, expecting our pilots to look the other way while doing the same work for less money.

Please take a look a Spirit Airlines new contact. A true ULCC. They have figured out a way to compensate the pilot group better than current WJ rates. Is it magic?

I would love some of you to answer the hard questions on this thread, but I’m not expecting a real discussion to hapen
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Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

#55 Post by Rezy » Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:48 pm

WeedPro2000 wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:54 am
Thanks for the words KAG. We'll fight for the coffee.

I think my passion is aligned with RealityChex's. I was here when JetsGo exposed our weak position. We watched virtually helplessly as they blew a cannonball sized hole in our operation's competitiveness. On another website, wjpilotforum.ca, which is restricted to essentially the 39 percent of us who voted against ALPA (you need an existing member's recommendation), many are voicing their displeasure and concern about where ALPA is taking us. Now that ALPA has refused to extend the conciliation period, the concern grows.

While I am somewhat sympathetic to the concerns of those who think that Swoop is the leading edge of a campaign to eradicate the working conditions of existing WJ pilots, I do not share that view. ALPA consistently shows its lack of concern over the competitiveness of WJ in the marketplace.They would rather we repeat the experience of the US major airlines prior to 9/11 by inflating salaries to unrealistic levels, imperiling profitability and therefore survivability, instead of working collaboratively to maintain a competitive position in the marketplace. I have heard the majority of ALPA leaders at WJ speak before. I know the rhetoric that excites the troops. I fervently disagree with the message.

From what I read in the past about economics, the dismal science, being number 2 in a marketplace is a precarious place. Number 2 is a target from ahead and behind. Many ALPA supporters think WJ is big enough to be immune from economics. They think only about contracts. Well, I was at 3 airlines that had contracts with the pilots. Those airlines don't exist anymore. At the last outfit, C3, we pilots were blindsided by our poor financial shape. In fact my good friend Tom, who was a pilot at WJ at the time I was at C3, told me had one of the founders (RealiityChex) of WJ in the jump seat who had told him in the spring of 2001 that my company would be gone in 6 months time. I think he was off by a month or two.

I'm likely not destined for China. I have medical factors that will likely rule me out. In the meantime, I'm on team WJ.

ALPA won’t extend conciliation until there is an agreement with Swoop staffing. This is there biggest concern right now and they are taking an offensive stance toward management and bargaining, which is a good thing. Likely at this point, the CIRB will not make a ruling while negotiations are still taking place, as ALPA wants a ruling there is no benefit to extending conciliation. If the ruling does not go the way ALPA wants they have 2 other avenues available- common employer or strike. The later of which becomes more likely before swoop starts operations if the do not extend conciliation.
To date, there has not been talk about Swoop during bargaining with conciliators- that we can confirm.

So there is absolutely no benefit for ALPA to extend conciliation at this point.
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Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

#56 Post by FICU » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:36 pm

countdown wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:44 am
The MEC tells management that they expect all Swoop flying to be done by WJ pilots at WJ hourly rates
This should be the priority.
- and they expect those rates to rise by 30 to 40% with a new contract.
This would be wishful thinking.

Get the flying at current rates first.
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Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

#57 Post by Realitychex » Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:51 pm

If you want to earn US style wages, then figure out how 100% of WS's income can be earned in US$ and how WS can operate based out of the US with US costs and US levels of taxation, (at all levels), rather than Canadian levels of taxation and the issues the high levels of taxation cause. Have you checked out US operating margins vs Cdn margins recently? It's night and day.

Your management can't communicate precisely what needs to be done in these terms for obvious reasons, but the time to crush Flair is now. Not six months from now. Not a year from now. Now. They are very weak and extremely vulnerable.

Those folks who think otherwise better be prepared to deal with far, far tougher issues than figuring out how to ensure Swoop's 10-15 aircraft have the lowest stage length adjusted costs in the business in Canada.

They'll have to deal with things like how to deal with a radical mainline downsizing if obtuse WS ALPA obstinence gives Flair and others a window to gain any traction in the market.

Everyone at WJ needs to understand the necessity to SHUT THE BACK DOOR immediately.

That issue far surpasses anything else that is going on.

All WS's competitors must be rubbing their hands with glee at what's going on at WS and the opportunity this stubborn intransigence is presenting.

I know I would. It's a dream come true for the competition. It's self sabotage at it's worst.

8)
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Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

#58 Post by Realitychex » Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:57 pm

Sometimes a spade needs to be called a shovel.
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Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

#59 Post by Go Guns » Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:59 pm

Realitychex wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:51 pm
If you want to earn US style wages, then figure out how 100% of WS's income can be earned in US$ and how WS can operate based out of the US with US costs and US levels of taxation, (at all levels), rather than Canadian levels of taxation and the issues the high levels of taxation cause. Have you checked out US operating margins vs Cdn margins recently? It's night and day.

Your management can't communicate this for obvious reasons, but the time to crush Flair is now. Not six months from now. Not a year from now. Now.

Those folks who think otherwise better be prepared to deal with far, far tougher issues than figuring out how to ensure Swoop's 10-15 aircraft have the lowest stage length adjusted costs in the business in Canada.

They'll have to deal with things like how to deal with a radical mainline downsizing if obtuse WS ALPA obstinence gives Flair and others a window to gain any traction in the market.

Everyone at WJ needs to understand the necessity to SHUT THE BACK DOOR immediately.

That issue far surpasses anything else that is going on.

All WS's competitors must be rubbing their hands with glee at what's going on at WS and the opportunity this stubborn intransigence is presenting.

I know I would. It's a dream come true for the competition. It's self sabotage at it's worst.

8)
Again, the majority of the drivers are on board with the idea of Swoop, and WS ALPA has been willing to discuss Swoop for months. There's only one party dragging their feet here, giving the competition an opportunity to get a stronger foothold.
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Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

#60 Post by countdown » Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:38 pm

Westjet is not going to pay Swoop pilots over twice the hourly rate that Flair and other entrants are paying. Maybe we could get Swoop close to what our current rates are and then start working on what we really want which an improvement to mainline WAWON - specifically, schedules and cash in jeans. When the Swoop pilots flow to mainline they will be happy for the career progression.

Yes, negotiate scope with Swoop, negotiate something so that we stay on the one list, but Swoop and Mainline are not going to have the same WAWCON, unless perhaps we lower ours. I'm convinced that equal WAWCON for Swoop and Mainline is a nonstarter. When this finally all makes it to the arbitrator we are going to be in a worse place than we are now.

If you really want 100% ALPA support then get realistic about what's truly achievable.
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Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

#61 Post by cloak » Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:48 pm

Speaking of U.S pay, back in 2000 United Airlines secured a hefty pay increase (48%?), over 300K for B737 skippers, and about a year later chapter 11, disappearance of pension, lay-offs ensued. There is such a thing as pricing oneself out of the market. That U.S wages and cost structure are different has become even more evident recently; their majors entry pay is in the 70s, whereas Air Canada for instance is not even 50.

I'm not an expert, but am thinking if all its costs are the same as WS, then how is Swoop going to compete with other ULCCs? Seems that ULCC flying is going to be done no matter what, if not profitably by Swoop, then by one of the other players. Swoop is a defensive move, perhaps the focus should be on the B787s where the real expansion will come?
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Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

#62 Post by tbaylx » Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:55 pm

Go Guns wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:59 pm
Realitychex wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:51 pm
If you want to earn US style wages, then figure out how 100% of WS's income can be earned in US$ and how WS can operate based out of the US with US costs and US levels of taxation, (at all levels), rather than Canadian levels of taxation and the issues the high levels of taxation cause. Have you checked out US operating margins vs Cdn margins recently? It's night and day.

Your management can't communicate this for obvious reasons, but the time to crush Flair is now. Not six months from now. Not a year from now. Now.

Those folks who think otherwise better be prepared to deal with far, far tougher issues than figuring out how to ensure Swoop's 10-15 aircraft have the lowest stage length adjusted costs in the business in Canada.

They'll have to deal with things like how to deal with a radical mainline downsizing if obtuse WS ALPA obstinence gives Flair and others a window to gain any traction in the market.

Everyone at WJ needs to understand the necessity to SHUT THE BACK DOOR immediately.

That issue far surpasses anything else that is going on.

All WS's competitors must be rubbing their hands with glee at what's going on at WS and the opportunity this stubborn intransigence is presenting.

I know I would. It's a dream come true for the competition. It's self sabotage at it's worst.

8)
Again, the majority of the drivers are on board with the idea of Swoop, and WS ALPA has been willing to discuss Swoop for months. There's only one party dragging their feet here, giving the competition an opportunity to get a stronger foothold.
The majority of the drivers are onboard at wages Swoop isnt going to pay..mainline pay and an increase of 30% ?? really? I'd say the intransigence here is heavily ALPA weighted.
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Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

#63 Post by tbaylx » Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:59 pm

countdown wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:38 pm
Westjet is not going to pay Swoop pilots over twice the hourly rate that Flair and other entrants are paying. Maybe we could get Swoop close to what our current rates are and then start working on what we really want which an improvement to mainline WAWON - specifically, schedules and cash in jeans. When the Swoop pilots flow to mainline they will be happy for the career progression.

Yes, negotiate scope with Swoop, negotiate something so that we stay on the one list, but Swoop and Mainline are not going to have the same WAWCON, unless perhaps we lower ours. I'm convinced that equal WAWCON for Swoop and Mainline is a nonstarter. When this finally all makes it to the arbitrator we are going to be in a worse place than we are now.

If you really want 100% ALPA support then get realistic about what's truly achievable.
If your MEC had taken this tact from the beginning instead of demanding mainline conditions you'd be in a far better spot right now.

Also i wouldn't assume swoop pilots are interested in flowing to mainline.
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Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

#64 Post by cloak » Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:15 pm

tbaylx wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:55 pm
Go Guns wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:59 pm
Realitychex wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:51 pm
If you want to earn US style wages, then figure out how 100% of WS's income can be earned in US$ and how WS can operate based out of the US with US costs and US levels of taxation, (at all levels), rather than Canadian levels of taxation and the issues the high levels of taxation cause. Have you checked out US operating margins vs Cdn margins recently? It's night and day.

Your management can't communicate this for obvious reasons, but the time to crush Flair is now. Not six months from now. Not a year from now. Now.

Those folks who think otherwise better be prepared to deal with far, far tougher issues than figuring out how to ensure Swoop's 10-15 aircraft have the lowest stage length adjusted costs in the business in Canada.

They'll have to deal with things like how to deal with a radical mainline downsizing if obtuse WS ALPA obstinence gives Flair and others a window to gain any traction in the market.

Everyone at WJ needs to understand the necessity to SHUT THE BACK DOOR immediately.

That issue far surpasses anything else that is going on.

All WS's competitors must be rubbing their hands with glee at what's going on at WS and the opportunity this stubborn intransigence is presenting.

I know I would. It's a dream come true for the competition. It's self sabotage at it's worst.

8)
Again, the majority of the drivers are on board with the idea of Swoop, and WS ALPA has been willing to discuss Swoop for months. There's only one party dragging their feet here, giving the competition an opportunity to get a stronger foothold.
The majority of the drivers are onboard at wages Swoop isnt going to pay..mainline pay and an increase of 30% ?? really? I'd say the intransigence here is heavily ALPA weighted.
ALPA used similar rhetoric in the summer of 2001 with Canada 3000 pilots, pay parity with Air Canada, pension, etc. which priced it out of its market.
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Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

#65 Post by RidersRule » Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:25 pm

I'm glad all you people on here that don't work at WestJet got it all figured out....

What's that saying.

"Don't judge someone till you've walked a mile in their shoes..."

Take me for example. Was fully anti union...and u pick away and pick away and push and push until u can't take anymore. So u stand up to the bully and say enough is enough.

I seen something once...it said something to the effect...when u push a former loyal employee until he no longer cares...you have a problem.
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Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

#66 Post by Realitychex » Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:42 pm

countdown wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:38 pm
Westjet is not going to pay Swoop pilots over twice the hourly rate that Flair and other entrants are paying. Maybe we could get Swoop close to what our current rates are and then start working on what we really want which an improvement to mainline WAWON - specifically, schedules and cash in jeans. When the Swoop pilots flow to mainline they will be happy for the career progression.

Yes, negotiate scope with Swoop, negotiate something so that we stay on the one list, but Swoop and Mainline are not going to have the same WAWCON, unless perhaps we lower ours. I'm convinced that equal WAWCON for Swoop and Mainline is a nonstarter. When this finally all makes it to the arbitrator we are going to be in a worse place than we are now.

If you really want 100% ALPA support then get realistic about what's truly achievable.

WS ALPA folks better get realistic about how this game of chess plays out.

You are being used by a much larger organization with a very different agenda. You're being used to fight a war, but you should be far more selfish and concerned about the battle that matters to your immediate career and that is WS vs ULCC's, period.

If WS ALPA types think that ALPA is working entirely for their benefit, you are dreaming in technicolor. Ask anyone who was left hanging in the wind at C3 in Oct 2001.

I hate to break it to you but there is no mass conspiracy out there to "get" WS pilots. Everyone at WS is in the same boat from top to bottom. You do not want to be the meat in the sandwich, but that's where this is headed in the long term. Anyone remember the last meat in the sandwich? Canadian Airlines anyone?

Don't think for a second the outcome will be anything close to what happened in Dec '99. It's a very different world out there, folks. There won't be any merger, gang. Them day's is over.

I'm not particularly concerned about the "threat" of Rouge. They don't have the cost structure to be dangerous to WS's future in the grand scheme of things, esp should oil drift north.

However, if WS is unable to compete on a stage length adjusted cost basis with whatever ULCC is able to gain traction in the market place, the house collapses and you all start at square one in your career again. Not good for anyone.

That is the scenario every other airline and potential airline executive in Canada is working 24/7 to ensure occurs.

This is war folks. Rally around the flag.

Shut that back door tight.

8)
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Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

#67 Post by Go Guns » Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:06 pm

The majority of the drivers are onboard at wages Swoop isnt going to pay..mainline pay and an increase of 30% ?? really? I'd say the intransigence here is heavily ALPA weighted.
A 30% raise is rhetoric from the fringe opposite of JS. The bulk probably realize that's not very realistic, especially for a 1st contract. However, the solidarity amongst the group that Swoop flying does not belong on a 'B' scale is on a level I've never seen here.
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Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

#68 Post by Snagmaster E » Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:12 pm

cloak wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:15 pm
ALPA used similar rhetoric in the summer of 2001 with Canada 3000 pilots, pay parity with Air Canada, pension, etc. which priced it out of its market.

That sums the reasons for 3000's demise nicely. You only missed 9/11, Royal's books, plus a few more...
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Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

#69 Post by cloak » Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:28 pm

Snagmaster E wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:12 pm
cloak wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:15 pm
ALPA used similar rhetoric in the summer of 2001 with Canada 3000 pilots, pay parity with Air Canada, pension, etc. which priced it out of its market.

That sums the reasons for 3000's demise nicely. You only missed 9/11, Royal's books, plus a few more...
You're right, the official reasons for bankruptcy, according to competition bureau, were 1) Merger costs, 2) Tango, 3)9/11, it may have survived two, but not all 3 they said.
In spite of the initial ALPA rhetoric, in the end, there were pay-cuts, lay-offs and still bankruptcy ensued, days later ALPA shut down its website and left!
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Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

#70 Post by goingnowherefast » Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:09 pm

One thing I don't understand is why a highly profitable airline needs to pay only the pilots less to be viable. Mechanics, management, etc. all get the normal rates. It's mighty suspicious too that it's all timed with the union drive, certification and contract negotiations. Smells a lot like union busting.

The exact dates and times aren't relevant, everybody was hearing the same rumours and knew what was happening on both sides.

The difference in fuel burn between a 737 classic vs NG should negate any difference in pilot WAWCON. WJ already has more efficient, reliable airplanes, economies of scale and operational network to push out a small competitor. Is paying the pilots less as well really make-or-break for Swoop? I really doubt it.
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Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

#71 Post by Duke15 » Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:49 pm

WJ pilot costs are 6% while the rest of the industry is sitting between 10-14%, in addition WJ has been profitable how many quarters in a row, constantly having bigger profits...yet some still think we should sit back and let management pay us less for the SAME flying...it really is true, pilots are our own worst enemy.
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Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

#72 Post by yyc757 » Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:59 pm

C3 did NOT fail due to pilot wages.
Skyservice did NOT fail due to pilot wages.
Zoom did NOT fail due to pilot wages.
Canadian did NOT fail due to pilot wages.
Can Jet did NOT fail due to pilot wages.
Jets go did NOT fail due to pilot wages. (ML made $4.5m in training bond cheques at $25k a pop.)
Nation air did NOT fail due to pilot wages.


WJ pilots fly WJ (group!!!) Aircraft on one WAWCON.
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Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

#73 Post by TFTMB heavy » Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:10 am

Don't forget WS wants to run Swoop at 189 seats, that will a 10-12% improvement on the seat cost mile.
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Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

#74 Post by Realitychex » Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:40 am

goingnowherefast wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:09 pm
One thing I don't understand is why a highly profitable airline needs to pay only the pilots less to be viable. Mechanics, management, etc. all get the normal rates. It's mighty suspicious too that it's all timed with the union drive, certification and contract negotiations. Smells a lot like union busting.

The exact dates and times aren't relevant, everybody was hearing the same rumours and knew what was happening on both sides.

The difference in fuel burn between a 737 classic vs NG should negate any difference in pilot WAWCON. WJ already has more efficient, reliable airplanes, economies of scale and operational network to push out a small competitor. Is paying the pilots less as well really make-or-break for Swoop? I really doubt it.

What happens when Flair or another ULCC takes advantage of the traction the ALPA intransigence is causing, finds some serious investors and uses the funds to acquire NG's or MAX aircraft in 189 seat configuration? Are you so naive as to think that isn't already being shopped to investors North America wide?

These guys spend 100% of their time trying to destroy the company you work for and issues your pay cheques. Nothing would make them happier than to see WJ turn into another Canadian. WJ ALPA leaders need to recognize this very, very quickly and come to an agreement that ensures above and beyond anything else, that the future of WJ ALPA pilots is secure, then worry about ALPA pilots at other airlines who's management would LOVE to see WJ collapse under its own weight.

I've been intimately involved in three North American LCC start ups, that today, operate a total of about 500 aircraft, with hundreds more on order. Be very thankful I'm not particularly interested in being involved in a 4th because I've already done the modeling, on exactly the same basis as the other 3 that all turned out quite well and know precisely how to put a CDN ULCC together and make a ton of money in doing so. Thank your lucky stars no one else has figured it out, yet, but eventually, they will. I guarantee it.

Everyone from top to bottom at WJ is in this fight together, be it now, or in the future. It's a war that you must win. Lose it and you'll have much, much more serious problems to have to sort out.

Shut that back door now.
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Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

#75 Post by goingnowherefast » Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:12 am

Then they should pay dispatchers, management, FAs, CSAs, mechanics, everybody else less as well. Not just pick on the group that is certifying. 10% pay cuts across the board for everybody getting Swooped.

As a side note, I don't work for WJ. Given the labour relations at present, I don't plan to. I'm just trying to understand the logic of pissing off pilots during a global pilot shortage and economic growth.

I don't see Flair destroying WJ. If WJ management gets their way, I see lots of pilots leaving for AC/others and a crew shortage being more damaging. Might take 5 years, but it's coming. What's going on at the 703/704 operators is coming to the big ones as well.
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